Relay? Marathon? Relay? Marathon? Relay?

When first I thought about this, I thought, "A relay would be much easier than a marathon."

But the more I think about it, the more I think I was wrong.

Can someone explain to me which is easier and/or why?

You're going to get differing opinions on this, I'm sure, but here's my experience. I've run this race since 2001, generally taking leg 1 all but one year when I took leg 3 on an 11 person team. I've run a marathon once.

If you are talking about a full 12-person team, then most if not all slots are easier. You get a chance to rest between legs, and even the toughest mileage doesn't reach 26.2 (although the course is definitely harder than the vast majority of marathon courses). Admittedly, taking breaks in between presents a different set of difficulties, like proper fueling, tending to sore muscles, and sleep management, to name a few. Oh, and getting along with 5 other smelly van mates. That you don't have to do in a marathon. When I ran a marathon, my biggest problem was my knees. I'm pushing clydesdale weight so 26 miles straight is tough on my frame. But I don't feel that during this race. Even when I ran 4 legs at a total of 20+ miles my joints did not take the same punishment. I stiffened up like crazy, but my knees were okay.

Now, if you're talking an ultra team (which I have never done), then I think you definitely have to nod the relay as being harder.

One thing to reiterate, though, is that there are slots with different difficulties. As RBS explains in another post, slots 1-3 are pretty tough, but 6-12 are less so. Even if the furthest you've ever run is a 10K, you can handle a couple of the legs in this race. You'll want to be *at least* a half-marathoner for the tougher legs.

In short, relay is easier, unless you're an ultra team. But be mindful that a relay has it's own set of challenges that are different than a marathon. So there is an element of comparing apples and oranges, and you will most likely train differently for this race than a marathon. (For example, I rarely run more than 10 miles training for this race, whereas I put in a 20 miler for my marathon.)

My 2 cents anyway.

Edited Tue Dec 18th 2007 2:26 am by Capn Dave

As you can see from Capn Dave's post, there are so many variables in the relay it makes it virtually impossible to compare the two straightup.

I agree w/ C.D., the only reasonable way is to break it down into reasonable scenarios.

Ultra vs marathon: ultra tougher

12 person team vs marathon: marathon tougher

9 or 10 person team - slots 2 or 3 vs marathon: wash

What I don't recall seeing from the 2007 race is a steep, sustained downhill like the second half of the old leg 1 or 3. The years I did those legs I had to do 4 legs (11 person & 9 person teams respectively) and at the end my legs were screaming and hurt for a week because of the pounding on those downhills. I've done 1 marathon and was 'depleted' but I didn't hurt.

Additionally, during the relay you'll use different tactics/paces based on distance & difficulty. In general, IMO, the relay is more demanding and the marathon endurance - if that makes any sense to you.

:?
Have a Great - Safe Holiday Season!!!!!!!!!!!
Run Strong..............

RBS

But be mindful that a relay has it's own set of challenges that are different than a marathon. So there is an element of comparing apples and oranges, and you will most likely train differently for this race than a marathon. (For example, I rarely run more than 10 miles training for this race, whereas I put in a 20 miler for my marathon.)


Thanks, Capn. At the risk of asking too much of you, could you give some details about those challenges?

I've never run -- or even watched! -- a relay like this, and I am not entirely sure I understand the whole thing.

Thanks in advance.

SeeMarcieRun
Thanks, Capn. At the risk of asking too much of you, could you give some details about those challenges?

No problem at all -- I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to answer questions and help out.

I think you are really asking two different questions. The first, what do I mean by different challenges as compared to a marathon. And the second, judging by your "I am not entirely sure I understand the whole thing." comment, I think you are interested in an overview of the mechanics of the race.

Let me just say that I am a 7-time captain (started in 2001) of a 12-person team (although we ran one year with 11). So I can't speak particularly well to running an ultra. Also, I am a middle-of-the-pack runner, so don't look to me for advice on running this race to win. I can help you out if you want to run this race to have a great time, bond with your teammates, and run with a purpose.

So first, what makes running this race different than a single-distance race? You need to understand that you will be running three times (or more) in a roughly 24 hour period. You need to run each leg with that in mind so that you can run optimally for all three legs. For example, up until last year leg 1 used to run up Bretton Woods ski area. If you ran that leg to win it, you would undoubtedly be in a lot of pain when you got to your third leg, leg 25, because it is a 9+ miler with lots of hills. You need to be aware that if you run too hard on your first and second legs, your third will be brutal.

In addition to pacing yourself, you need to feed yourself properly, too. The first couple of years we made the mistake of prioritizing sleep over food, and not having any kind of dinner Friday night. Come Saturday morning, not having had any dinner at all Friday night, you just can't perform well at all. Since I am typically leg 1, I have a bowl of soup as soon as we have completed out second set of legs. I also make a pb&j sandwich for later. Then, as soon as I get up (60-90 minutes before my run), I eat the sandwich. This has worked well for me for the last couple of years.

Lastly, you want to deal with your muscles stiffening up on you. "The stick" is a very popular item, giving yourself a rub down as often as necessary. When we had a physical therapist on our team, she had a bunch of us on the grass doing yoga waiting for our runner!

Those are the big challenges specifically related to running. But there are other things you want to work out as well. Come to an understanding with your teammates about what you expect of them and what they expect of you. If you are on a competitive team but are not a competitive runner, there will likely be some friction. Also, figure out how you as a team are going to handle runner support. Remember, there are no water stops on this race -- you support your own teammates. As an example, before each leg we ask the runner what they want for water stops (i.e. what distances). For a 5 mile leg, 1 stop is probably plenty. For a 9 miler, we usually stop at least twice. Your team may be different. The worst thing you want is to have a runner expect you at a certain point, especially at night, and not be there. (This happened to us and members of van 2 got an earful after they neglected to stop for their runner when she expected them to.) In years past it wasn't a big deal to stop frequently, particularly at night, but the race has gotten more crowded and stopping can sometimes be a problem. So as a runner you need to be aware that your teammates can't always stop exactly where you want. For example, if you say you want water at mile 3, don't be upset if your team isn't right at mile three. They may have had to go ahead to mile 3.5 or 4. But me mindful of peoples' sensitivities. We've had some "city girls" who are a little freaked out about running in the dark, at 2 am, in the middle of backwoods NH. I think you will find most people think it is very enjoyable, if not surreal, to run at night. There are stretches where you may only see 1-2 people 100 yards ahead, watching their blinking lights flash, and it's as quiet as can be. It can be intense if you are not accustomed to it.

I'd suggest putting some thought into the way you pack your clothes. Particularly if you are a team that likes to provide a lot of runner support, you will be constantly on the go. I pack three full sets of running clothes (shorts, shirt, socks, underwear) and roll up each set. So I reach in my back and pull out the next set. Then throw the old ones into a plastic bag, separated from the clean stuff. Sounds obvious, but not everyone thinks of this.

To me the most important rule is to stay focused on having a good time. Nerves can get rubbed pretty raw and it can be really difficult to keep from snapping at a teammate whom you didn't particularly get along with in the first place. Remember that you are there to have a good time, and don't worry about the small stuff. Be friendly on the course, say hi to folks. I tell people that the race is what you make of it. If you want to be miserable and complain, you will not enjoy it. If you want to have a good time, be positive, and just enjoy yourself. (This is particularly important on your third leg, when it is really easy to fall into the "I don't feel well", "I'm too tired" mentality.)

To the second question, the mechanics of the race. That'll have to wait for another time. But in short, get runbikeski's Unofficial Runners Guide. (Ask him nicely and he'll email it to you.)

Good luck, Merry Christmas, and looking forward to seeing you out there!

-dsr

Haven't even looked at the URG since the race.

Actually, I'm still trying to get my head screwed back on right.......

I pulled my hamstring near the end of leg 1 but still ran legs 2 & 3 last year and had to run the last half mile up the hill to the Candia fire station in a hideous micro burst . I said I'd never do the race again.

Time heals all wounds so I may likely do the 2008 race, may take a year off(???)

If anyone wants a copy of the 2007 Unofficial Runners Guide (URG), just send me an e-mail at

runbikeski@excite.com

Merry Christmas.............

RBS

I've done RTB twice, in 2006 and 2007. In 2006 I ended up doing 4 legs, 1, 13, 24, and 35. In 2007 it was 3, 15, and 26.

In 2006, I ran the NYC Marathon six weeks after RTB. In 2007, my wife ordered that RTB or NY, and I chose RTB. In 2008, I'll do NY.

The extent to which RTB and a marathon are comparable depends on which legs you get. I had a relatively easy group in 2006, and a murderous set in 2007.

If you're doing a tough group, to race (as opposed to run) RTB, you have to be in near marathon shape. While you don't need as many long runs as for a marathon, if you do the tough legs you need at least one 18-20-miler. Without that, I suffered mightily on my last leg; good speed, 8 stops.

One of the beauties of the new course was that legs 1, 2, 3, and 4 (a pure downhill) set those runners up for the other legs and made those other legs really hard.

But for Van 2, I don't think it was nearly so tough. But except for the final 6 legs or so, every leg has some hills.

To be clear, I view RTB as a race, although our team had a whole range of speeds. The one thing you don't want is to be on a team (we were 21st) where some people are taking it seriously and others as a lark. While I may have taken it more seriously than some others on my team, everyone trained pretty hard for it. The varying speeds were not a function of training but of talent. But I treated it as my fall race, and trained accordingly, and I largely used marathon training, i.e., lots of distance and tempos.

Edited Mon Dec 24th 2007 3:39 am by JPGarland

JP: did you start off with the same legs as everyone else??? :lol: :lol:

Leg 1: down

Leg 2: first 3+ mile down, 2 flat, 4 miles climb

Leg 3: 7+ miles all climb

Leg 4: down

Leg 5 down

Leg 6: down.

Absolutely agree that some of the 1st legs can set you up. Slot 4 has an UGLY 2nd run (after the opening downhill) & slot 5 has the 1+ mile run uphill out of Meridith for their 2nd run.

And last year the overall split for a 12 person team was pretty lopsided -- van 1 had something like 115 miles while van 2 had 85 miles. You can get away with being in OK shape if you're in V2 but you'd better be ready if you're in V1.

For 2008, I would expect leg 26 to get back to ~ 4.5 mile from the 8.4 last year and the committee has to take a hard look at / change TA 29. Legs 29 & 30 coming into and leaving the TA were just way too dangerous. But again, that will only affect V1.


Pats won :mrgreen: Merry Christmas..............

RBS

I corrected my 2007 legs. Leg 3 was 8.1 miles.

Here's what I think. If you trian for a marathon knowing that you are going to race it at your marathon pace (whatever that may be) than the marathon is as tough as the course you choose to run and you'll hurt accordingly.

In a relay like this you're probably not going to be running marathon pace. You're going to run faster. In fact, I think you should look at each leg like a race unto itself and run as fast as you can. If your first leg is a short one run it like a 5k or 5 miler not like a marathon. Check out some of the second leg distances, there are some short legs there. You don't want to be out in the middle of the night running 3, 4, or 5 miles at marathon pace. Do you? You'll want to crank it up on those legs and this goes for all runners.

By the last leg you're going to be hurting, but as long as you've trianed with some good long runs (if you have the time think about a slightly modified marathon program), some track and definitly some hills and you have a good support team you'll do fine. It's a fun race and let's face we all want to go fast!

I for one have always come out of this race huting more than a marathon. To put this into prospective I'm 51 years old, I run 3:00 to 3:14 in the marathon and 18 flat or HI 17's for the 5k and when I run this race all I'm thinking about is 6 minute miles even if the leg will never allow me to run that fast that's what I'm thinking.

So this is the take from a guy who see's this relay as 3 seperate races in 24 hours and it kicks your ass. But it's a fun ass kicking and there is always time to recover! Just go for it and I can't wait to see you gingerly stepping out of your van at the beach. I'll know for sure you ran hard!

Good luck and stay healthy!

Giants won...Happy New Year!!!

Edited Tue Mar 25th 2008 2:33 am by RunLongLI



Edited Tue Mar 25th 2008 2:33 am by RunLongLI

I agree that you don't run Marathon Pace and that marathon-lite training is the way to go, i.e., you don't need so many long runs. The best pace guide is from the Unofficial guide, which uses HM times and then a +/- factor. For example, leg 3 = HM + 1 min. You'll degrade late, i.e., the third leg will hurt more than the first, and this is factored into the pace guide. You want to avoid being too aggressive in the early stages, however. 30 seconds faster on the first leg may cost you 3 minutes on the third. That's what I meant about the first legs (esp. 1, 2, and 3) setting up the rest of the race and the importance of being prepared. Other legs might allow you to treat each as a stand-alone race, but not those.

BTW, for me marathon training includes a good deal of stuff faster than Marathon pace. I've also found RTB far less stressful post-race than a marathon. I'm 51 too.

Some good points JP. I agree about the speed work and light marathon training. Ge some long runs in. I don't know about the 30 seconds in the first leg equaling 3 minutes on the last and lets face everyone is going to run slower on the 3rd leg, but for me that first leg should be all out and if you need a rest then taking it a little easier on the 2nd leg. Anyway, however you run the thing you're going to have fun, you're going to hurt and when it's all over your're going to wish you could do it again the next weekend!
Reach the Beach!!!!!!!!!!!!

Depending on how you approach this, it can be as easy or as hard as you'd like.

I have never run more than 10 miles at one time. Can't imagine staying focused long enough or putting in the training required for a marathon.

I used to run each leg as hard as I could. Typically the third leg was extremely painful and I would be sore for days. Most years, I would push too hard for too long and come up with some sort of injury.

Last year I had a stent installed in July. So I ran the race with restraint and for the first two legs kept my heart rate below a certain comfortable level. Needed to make sure I could survive the whole race, there was some level of unpredictability involved.

When my last leg came up, I was feeling great, minor soreness, and I was able to up my exertion level a bit and finish strongly.

I have always treated the race as 3 10K's. This year it was more like 2 easy training runs followed by a hard one. I had a completely different experience. I was the passee rather than the passer, but I was able to have a little more fun.

For eaxmple on my 2nd run it was starting to rain while I was waiting for the handoff. Standing under my golf umbrella I felt pretty good, I really didn't feel like getting wet. Since I was taking it easy anyway, I ran my first mile+ with the umbrella.
It was great!

I was runner 12 this year. Just under 15 total easy miles. Can't image that being any where close to being as hard as a marathon.

George