Tour de France - death race?

Any of us that have ever been out on the roads on a bike have, at some point or other, been on the receiving end of some inconsiderate, some negligent, some plain ignorant, and some down right malicious behavoir from motorists. Some have experienced it running too.

My own view is that whole driving licence system is wrong, that no-one should ever be allowed a car licence until they've progressed through a series of "vocational qualifications" that include time as a pedestrian, cyclist, then motorcyclist. I wholeheartedly believe that most of the rotten driving is not intentionally bad, just that people through lack of experience at the receiving end simply have no idea of how their actions affect others.

Whether you agree with this or not, you have to admit that something is wrong when a 16 year old kid can be let loose in a huge tractor and 12 tonne trailer (some of these things will hit 45mph these days) on nothing more than a provisional moped licence. It just doesn't compare with a moped, think of the damage 20 tonnes of steel and spuds travelling at 45mph could do.

What's it coming to though when cars involved with the Tour de France cavalcade start knocking the riders off their bikes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvnLDpgmT6U&feature=player_embedded

What's going on in bike racing? Many riders are getting louder and louder about safety concerns, and it seems to be coming to a head in this Tour with Bradley Wiggins and others crashed out of it already. There's already been a death in this years Giro d'Italia, how bad does is it have to get?

You are not seriously suggesting people should have to ride a motorbike on the road before they're allowed to drive a car?? They are bloody death traps! I'd be dead in about 6 minutes.

Personally I wouldn't cycle on the roads these days full stop. From being out in a car every day I don't think it is safe.

As far as the Tour goes, they seem to do a pretty good job of crashing into each other without cars doing it for them!

Absolutely that's what I'm suggesting - moped at 16, car at 17, that's how it works now, too many go straight into the car though. Without exception, every single person I know with road experience on 2 wheels has made a better driver (more observant, more considerate, more forward thinking, more hazard conscious, even more aware of oil, water, fuel etc levels in their car) than those who went straight into a car.

For what it's worth, I think regular re-testing, say every 10 years, would make the roads better places to be too, regardless of your chosen mode of transport. Look at an up to date Highway Code, it's different to when most of our generation passed our tests, but how many of us actually know what's changed?

I'm not sure that the logic follows - seems to me that motorcyclists are a certain type of person anyway. There is zero chance of me ever going on one.

All the suggestions would perhaps help but the real issue is that at least half of drivers are on autopilot, almost oblivious to their surroundings, and others simply don't care. I drive 50 miles a day and I see things all the time that boggle the mind. A test might wake them up for a while but they would soon resort to habits. Also, mobile phone use is endemic - you see it constantly - and is particularly scary when you see HGV drivers doing it.

Helping organise quite a few road races I was shocked to see that incident yesterday. You are right in that it is going to take a big death to create a safer tour.

I laughed after the crash when the 'tour doctor' treated the rider whilst he held onto the bike doing 30 miles an hour. I would love to see the health and safety form that included that! I am not a person to persist on more health and safety rules but there needs to be some sort rules to avoid what happened yesterday.

With an ageing population maybe deaths on road is the 'real' answer! Would this be a labour or conservative policy?

Add horse riding into the 'moped/pedestrian/cyclist' list. I don't keep horses any more but the number of inconsiderate drivers on the roads is pretty shocking and it's only getting worse.

Too many people in a hurry or not paying attention, or only giving a hands width space to pass. I don't have much tolerance for motorbikes, but ensure I give them room on the rare occasions I'll be overtaking. Horses and cyclists are another matter, I slow down, give room and pull well over to pass. I.e. I treat THEM like I like to be treated on the roads. Mopeds I just give a extra space when overtaking and hold back around corners etc, but carry on as normal otherwise.

Being a vulnerable road user gives you much more respect for the roads, it also makes you a lot more aware of other road users.

Then again, I'm the first to b*tch about the idiot cyclists/riders etc who aren't wearing a helmet, high-viz or suitable lights when it's dark. You just hope that if their head hits the tarmac they live to tell the tale.

Totally agree about phones.

Horses were originally on my list GF, but then I took it out, which might seem odd as both my wife and my daughter are horse riders, as are many people I know, and even the little lad is on one occasionally, but I gave it much thought and decided that actually, many drivers will do their driving where they will never see horses, will live in areas where they have severely limited access to horses so it wouldn't be fair or practicable to enforce that, and that actually, the improved awareness from the other 3 things would, or at least should, have a knock on beneficial effect for the equestrian community too. 

It's not a logic with the bike thing, it is pure observation and experience, based on events such as freinds / aquaintances running out of petrol, it's never happened to any of the bikers I know, but has happened to several of those who went straight to driving a car.

Quoted from Footnote

I'd have to say Labour, since it was on their watch that road policing moved to revenue collecting.

I watched the highlight show and I could not believe the carnage going on, when the car clipped that guy - it looked intentional.

Quoted from Rob_Barber

Not running out of petrol is just common sense. What I mean is I can't see a logical connection between forcing people to ride bikes and them remembering to fill up. I'm assuming that all your biker friends ride bikes out of choice!

Anyway, I reiterate that motorbikes are deathtraps and forcing people to use them even if completely lacking the confidence to do so is stark staring bonkers. There must be very very few people who didn't ride a push bike in their teens - that should be sufficient.

Quoted from RS_

forcing people to use them even if completely lacking the confidence to do so is stark staring bonkers. There must be very very few people who didn't ride a push bike in their teens - that should be sufficient.

Or the ability. What do you do if you are a disabled person who could be driving a car with one of those hand assisted mechanisms? They wouldn't be able to go through any of the modular assessments and so by the "new rules" wouldn't be able to progress to drive.

I'm not disabled in any way, but I can tell you that a paraplegic has more chance of passing a cycle test than me. I am shocking on a bike!

Saying that I don't drive anyway, even though i've got full license so I don't know why I'm on here!

It's not about forcing people to ride bikes, it's about road safety, road awareness, and progression.

Think of it like this; You can got to university and get a degree if you want one. If that is what you want to do, first you must get an A-level or equivalent education, no-one forces you into that, but if you want the degree, you've got to do it. Car = degree, moped = A-levels.

If you'd been on a moped at 16 would you be scared of one now?

Are bikes deathtraps, or is it the car drivers that make them deathtraps?

For the record, with a brother who was paralysed in a car accident in 1992 (funnily enough but pure coincidence, caused by a driver who'd never ridden a moped) I am completely aware of the complexity of my proposal when you bring disabled drivers into the equation, I'm also fully aware of the adaptations that are possible for a multitude of vehicles, including quad bikes, and factoring everything in, it doesn't change my opinion.

back to your point on re-taking the test every 10 years shouldnt be allowed.....alot of time and money is spent getting your drivers license and if you are in a working class family then you are relieved when you complete your driving test because then 20 quid a week or more doesnt have to go to lessons....99% of people who have passed their test would fail if they took it the next day....if what i think is true then alot of people will be paying money towards driving again which i am sure will upset alot of unfortunate people..

Quoted from Rob_Barber

Quoted from seattle91

Doesn't that tell you that the system as it is needs changing?

Doesn't that tell you that what we have now is just churning out sub-standard drivers?

As for cost - where's your imagination? I reckon the current system of car tax needs changing too, and could indeed be changed in a way that would tie in with regular re-testing and be made more fair into the bargain - they've made small steps towards a fairer road tax system, but it's not enough. 

These drivers, all of them, who are not paying attention, texting, daydreaming etc, feeling safe in their tin box, they need waking up.

And all the loonies tearing around at inappropriate speeds, whatever type of vehicle they're in charge of, yeah, they're all pests, and all need a reminder that the roads are not a playground. Worth remembering though, this type of negligence on a bike and they'll likely kill themselves, but, do the same in a car, you may well feel safe, but you'll likely kill someone else - and that is the whole problem right there.

So you don't like my ideas, and that's fine, but in all your arguments against them all you've succeeded in doing so far is convincing me more and more that I'm right. So, it's only fair really that you put forward your solutions, lets have the debate, I'd love to hear your ideas, I'm open minded, I don't think for 1 minute that I've got all the answers. Let's hear yours?

Having driven to Germany and back recently I can say that speed alone really is not the problem that is made out to be.  Driving standards in Germany where there are sometimes no speed limits are generally really good.  The closer we got to the uk, the more aggresive the driving became...and then once back in the uk...well the driving standards on the M25 are just silly.  I can only think that it is down to attitude and for some reason us brits need to get from A to B as fast as possible with no consideration to anyone else and without taking into account the dreadful state of the roads...but that is yet another debate.

Every car should be fitted with a huge boxing glove on a spring pointed at the driver, and a camera sending a live feed to a central database system. If you come across another driver being an idiot, you press a big button on the dash and the people at the central office will view your recent camera footage. Should they agree with your assessment, they will remotely trigger the glove, which will strike the culprit in the face with a force & frequency concomitant with the level of the offence.

Sorted 

P.S. Particularly strong blows will be accorded to those numpties failing to indicate left at roundabouts!!!

Love it!

Quoted from RS_

LOL - I agree on this one! I have really got into it this year as well - would love to see it for real too.

On the 'wouldn't be able to pass a test' note, no... I don't think I'd be able to pass a test to instructor 'standard' any more as I've picked up driving habits over the last 4 years. I passed my test in a car and I've learned to be a driver since.

I occasionally rest my hand on the gear stick, I don't keep both hands on the wheel at all times, I don't hold it in XYZ position, I don't turn corners in the way I was originally taught. I don't think I'm a worse driver for it though, I can read a road better, I'm a confident driver, I look much further ahead than I did when I was learning. As far as 'driver safety' goes, I'm not a risk taker, I drive sensibly and I'm aware of the road and its users.

To pass a test, you have to drive in a very specific way, but it's not necessarily the BETTER way. Experience counts for a lot.